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I think there is more audience than just the Bay Area for talk at a sophisticated level.

As far as talking to upper levels, design is scary for many upper levels, even in the web related world. It is hard to quantify a better design is why a Flickr is fantastic and others are playing catch-up. Ease of use and enjoyment are tougher to measure than better metadata and faster more efficient algorithms. I have been talking to a fair amount of upper management in the past couple months and for many design is not the difference in their minds.

that was entertaining. thank you.

Why do designers never seem to get any "respect" from business leaders and advertising people are regarded as heroes? It's simple. Advertising people can take complex creative ideas and express them in simple terms so that business managers can see how the work will impact their business. Designers may have great ideas, but either lack the ability to express their work in business terms or the work is too introspective and really doesn't have a business sense. Oddly, this is less so in product design than in graphic design.

John,

That is a very powerful statement you're making -"Designers may have great ideas, but either lack the ability to express their work in business terms or the work is too introspective and really doesn't have a business sense. Oddly, this is less so in product design than in graphic design"

Clement did go on to say later that his efforts have not been able to generate the energy of this workshop's response in an AIGA environment. Perhaps,IMHO, this is because traditional graphic design focuses on the end product i.e. the logo or the layout vs the brand strategy type planning that the combination of marketing/advertising professionals do and now the interaction/user experience field is doing? Design schools, with the exception of the Institute of Design, have not been focusing as much on "foresight" or strategic issues. And certainly do not teach, as every business school does, how to get up in front of the client and make a powerful user case for a particular design direction.

Peter,
Thank you.

I attended the workshop - and your comments and notes are accurate. I do take issue with some of your commentary: especially in regards to "traditional graphic design" and remarks on MetaDesign.

This "new design vs. traditional design" mentality is so wearisome. Your blog entry is impying this, and Christina Wodkte highlighted this division as well when she stood up to comment quite vehemently that nothing the panel was saying was "news" to her and her work over the last several years. The subtext was clear - she, and others like her, were "designing business" for a long time, and the dinosaurs were just now getting it. Augh! the designer vs. designer syndrome all over again.

Design, as taught in respectable fine arts schools, is a process. It is never about the end product. So how can "traditional graphic designers" be primarily focused on the end product? In design school, I took a core design class, aptly titled "Strategic Design". Now tell me, how can you comment that design schools are not focused on "'foresight' or strategic issues"? The misconception of design among designers is really ironic don't you think?

As for the workshop (it was more of a discussion) I think the big points for me were these...

1. Designers have been, can and should continue to design business(es).
2. Should business people (MBAs) also be designers? (it is happening...)
3. My personal point of view, possibly shared by otheres: do business people just want to learn and use design's own time-proven processes to better their businesses... in particular: business people may believe that designers do not offer anything themselves, and that by solely using a design process: they will make their business better.

The last point there is near and dear to the designer's heart. Can we design ourselves out of our own jobs? I think the fellow from IDEO would say definately not. I am sure that IDEO has had this conversation. It would be very interesting to know their thoughts.

And lastly - are designers better facilitators than leaders? Thus underlining the fact that CEO's are MBA's, and not MFA's.

I'm someone with no design background who has spent the vast majority of my career translating designers for business people and business people for designers.

As much as Nathan says that designers are *taught* to be designers of business, I would amend that statement by saying that is so in *some* design programs, not all. I have met designers who have and who do not have any academic background to undertake business design.(The difference in programs is also apparent if you read Van Patter's interviews with various design gurus and educators on http://www.nextd.org) A

nd in addition, I don't think that we should conflate education with aptitude. MBAs and MFAs are people: they come in all flavors. Some designers have gifts that cross right/left brains and some simply don't. The same goes for MBAs.

I think the real problem comes from generalizing about any group. I therefore am not sure what value comes from saying that DESIGNERS should be doing ANYTHING in particular. I think it's more helpful to note where traditional design skills and processes might add value. For those who wish to seek out those opportunities and who have the skills to play in those sandboxes, great. For those who don't, there's other things for them to do.

As products become more commoditized, design has arisen as an increasingly recognized differentiator. This should continue if workers in the US wish to stay relevant in the face of globalization. It's no surprise that with that has come a new valuing of the tools of design (the processes, language, prototyping, etc) to people trained in other more business-ey domains: It's a whole new (to them) kit of tried and tested tools to succeed with!

Tony - I generally agree with your comments: you are very right that its often difficult to generalize, but then how can we carry on with a discussion if we can't generalize to a basic level (designer-like people become designers, business-like people become business people.)

One correction - in my post I never directly said design schools train people to design businesses. I think you misread my point about my strategic design course: that was aimed at proving that most reputable design schools _are_ strategic. Strategy does not equal business.

There are varying levels of education - some of the best being real life experience, and a lot of the worst being courses read from a t book at some liberal arts university that offer design majors.

This is a great discussion. I have been thinking about this issue quite a bit; that is, the frustration that so many designer feel these days.

What the heck is really going on here?

My two cents? As a graphic designer turned Web designer, I have experienced a personal shift or change that isn't so much about design, as it is about me, a designer.

The "context" in which we live and work is rapidly changing as we enter a new era that is clearly based more on knowledge, information, and the communication of ideas. The industrial era is coming to a close. Our reliance on natural resource won't last much longer; we are running out of them. So we, as people-not just designers-most evolve. It is a matter of survival.

However, the burden and frustration this places on the individual designer is huge and it is understandable. We are bringing ideas and knowledge to the world, yet our own ideas, our voices, are silent.

Intellectual ideas related to "context" or other disciplines outside of the "formal" aspects of design aren't encouraged in traditional design educations.

Our inherent intelligence, intellectual development and contribution to the "body of ideas" has not been developed. Instead, we learn to communicate others' ideas.

I was always described as "visual" or "creative," which to me always suggested I didn't have inherent intelligence in other areas. I was also taught that the "best design was transparent" and not about our own "ideas" outside of the "how."

Well, what about the "why?" I believe that there is desire in many of us to have a place at the table, be part of the discussion, so to speak, about some very urgent and pressing human and social needs.

What an opportunity this could be for us all.

Just think about it.

This is a great discussion. I have been thinking about this issue quite a bit; that is, the frustration that so many designer feel these days.

What the heck is really going on here?

My two cents? As a graphic designer turned Web designer, I have experienced a personal shift or change that isn't so much about buttfucking, as it is about me, a buttfucker.

The "context" in which we live and work is rapidly changing as we enter a new era that is clearly based more on knowledge, information, and the communication of ideas. The industrial era is coming to a close. Our reliance on natural resource won't last much longer; we are running out of them. So we, as people-not just buttfuckers - most evolve. It is a matter of survival.

However, the burden and frustration this places on the individual buttfucker is huge and it is understandable. We are bringing ideas and knowledge to the world, yet our own ideas, our voices, are silent.

Intellectual ideas related to "context" or other disciplines outside of the "formal" aspects of design aren't encouraged in traditional buttfucking educations.

Our inherent intelligence, intellectual development and contribution to the "body of ideas" has not been developed. Instead, we learn to communicate others' ideas.

I was always described as "visual" or "creative," which to me always suggested I didn't have inherent intelligence in other areas. I was also taught that the "best buttfucking was transparent" and not about our own "ideas" outside of the "how."

Well, what about the "why?" I believe that there is desire in many of us to have a place at the table, be part of the discussion, so to speak, about some very urgent and pressing human and social needs. Namely, buttfucking.

What an opportunity this could be for us all.

Just think about it.

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